CCA Requirements? Options

[Literati914]

I'll be picking up a flooded cell lead acid battery soon (budget oriented battery for a rear trunk relocation) and have been leaning towards a group 51R battery. I like this size because they are small - think Mazda Miata, small Honda Civics, Nissan GT-R, IIRC. However, I think the original group 34 had around 700 CCA [is that correct?] and the 51R tends to have a little less (425-/+). The first engine will be a 1.7, but then I'll probably upgrade fairly quickly, possibly before the typical battery dies.

I sort of recall the CCA demand being dependent on the needs of the starter.. or something like that. Anyone know for sure what our starters require, amp wise? And/Or Will the 425 CCA work?

[Superhawk996]

Typical starter draw is about 100-200A under load but you also want “reserve” since battery state of charge is rarely 100% after sitting for a while or when cold.

[technicalninja]

51r will work fine (have to have good grounds/feed wiring)

I'd go AGM even in the trunk.

Walmart has what I'd buy

https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Platin...130452206?gQT=2

$180 and you can put it anywhere!
The stock location isn't bad...

Lots of the Miata crowd goes TINY batteries. Like 5lbs. batteries!

They seem to work pretty good too...

[mlindner]

Optima in the trunk but not small. Mark

[fixer34]

51r will work fine (have to have good grounds/feed wiring)

I'd go AGM even in the trunk.

Walmart has what I'd buy

https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Platin...130452206?gQT=2

$180 and you can put it anywhere!
The stock location isn't bad...

Lots of the Miata crowd goes TINY batteries. Like 5lbs. batteries!

They seem to work pretty good too...

Speaking of small batteries, I would like someone to explain how these lithium based 'jump start' kits with a battery the size of cigarette pack will start a car.

[mepstein]

51r will work fine (have to have good grounds/feed wiring)

I'd go AGM even in the trunk.

Walmart has what I'd buy

https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Platin...130452206?gQT=2

$180 and you can put it anywhere!
The stock location isn't bad...

Lots of the Miata crowd goes TINY batteries. Like 5lbs. batteries!

They seem to work pretty good too...

Speaking of small batteries, I would like someone to explain how these lithium based 'jump start' kits with a battery the size of cigarette pack will start a car.

I don’t know how but I know for a fact that they will. I use mine all the time to start cars at my shop.

[Superhawk996]

Speaking of small batteries, I would like someone to explain how these lithium based 'jump start' kits with a battery the size of cigarette pack will start a car.

Lithium batteries are high energy density. They pack a big punch but not for long.

Lead Acid is low energy density. They don’t hit as hard but they are in it for the long haul.

It’s the difference between energy and power. Energy is the ability to do work. Power is the rate at which the work is done. lithium not as good at doing work over a long period of time (assuming the same current draw on both).

The rest of the details are in the Chemistry.

lithium batteries are not a good choice for day to day street use. Search the forum and you’ll find examples where Lithium batteries don’t have enough Amp-hours of capacity to do a great job where loads are high over extended periods of time.

[technicalninja]

Speaking of small batteries, I would like someone to explain how these lithium based 'jump start' kits with a battery the size of cigarette pack will start a car.

Lithium batteries are high energy density. They pack a big punch but not for long.

Lead Acid is low energy density. They don’t hit as hard but they are in it for the long haul.

It’s the difference between energy and power. Energy is the ability to do work. Power is the rate at which the work is done. lithium not as good at doing work over a long period of time (assuming the same current draw on both).

The rest of the details are in the Chemistry.

lithium batteries are not a good choice for day to day street use. Search the forum and you’ll find examples where Lithium batteries don’t have enough Amp-hours of capacity to do a great job where loads are high over extended periods of time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
My son Michael was a "Track Monkey" out at MSR. One of his duties was fire control, had to get "certified" and everything...
He HATED lithium fires! Said only way to REALLY put them out was to BURY them!
If a car had a lithium battery catch fire the entire car was lost.
They lost an entire ROW of Garages once to a Li "in garage" fire!

As for the little Jump Packs...
I have an inexpensive NOCO, I've used it 1000+ times in the last ten years...
It has worked SO well I bought them for all of my relatives as gifts. They can sit in a glove box for 9 months and still bounce a car right off!

My NOCO is ten years old and still going like a champ.
I am brand specific on these because of it. It still takes 30-45 mintes to charge it (USB) and it will start 10 normal cars...

FREAKING MAGIC!!!!!!

Ninja approved! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[GregAmy]

I am using this:
https://www.batterywarehouseonline.com/deka...ade-in-the-usa/

Mounted via this:
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/braille...2318/12145063-P

...in the trunk above the starter. Zero issues starting/running the 2056 mild build.

[Literati914]

51r will work fine (have to have good grounds/feed wiring)

I'd go AGM even in the trunk.

Walmart has what I'd buy

https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Platin...130452206?gQT=2

$180 and you can put it anywhere!

..
Lead Acid is low energy density. They don’t hit as hard but they are in it for the long haul.

Thanks guys.. I'm not even considering a lithium battery on this car, maybe the next.

So, the question now is: would you choose the Walmart AGM battery that @technicalninja linked @ 435 CCA 4yr $180, OR their Lead Acid @ 500 CCA 3yr $150? The money's not really the issue but wouldn't the CCA's take priority? I suppose the idea of rust developing in the trunk is a concern, but is there any other considerations (like maybe one handles heat/cold better or something?)?

[Superhawk996]

AGM without a doubt.

Can mount in any orientation. No corrosive off-gassing.

[mepstein]

AGM without a doubt.

Can mount in any orientation. No corrosive off-gassing.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) AGM for the win.

[zoomCat]

Will the 425 CCA work?

The factory battery was a Group 42. The factory specifies 45AH, but don't appear to make any mention of CCA. Group 42 flooded batteries generally make 450 to 500 AH.
One of the most demanding scenarios for a battery is starting after a long cold soak; think a month outside in 10 degree (fahrenheit) weather. Our cars are unlikely to see that situation, any modern automotive battery should be sufficient.
If you're in Texas I'd be more concerned about long term storage in sustained hot weather. AGM batteries appear to abide infrequent use, and I've heard some suggest that they suffer less from electrolyte evaporation. And, all the cool kids run AGM now.
You can find flooded batteries in Group 42, but not AGM. if you're not running in the stock location, size doesn't matter.

The short answer, 425 CCA should be fine. You can overanalyze the problem (as I do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)) based on other criteria.

[porschetub]

AGM without a doubt.

Can mount in any orientation. No corrosive off-gassing.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) 100% ,no conventional battery can match them ,they hold a strong residue for long time ,compact , low weight and compact .
Downside for me was the 5mm terminal bolts and my smart charger won't pull them back when voltage drops back too far but I have a convention low amp charger that sorts that issue and usually I can get full voltage back in an hour or so .
First Vision brand I had lasted 4 years but an accidental short finished that one off and expect it would a lot longer life otherwise ,the replacement was dimensionally the same but slightly higher amp hour rating.
This current one is a Ritar RT12240EV 17KG 7''high ,7''wide and 3''deep ,this one is now 3 yrs old and still going strong , these are an EV/golf cart/mobility scooter rating but my starts my six easily over and over again , really amazing performance and cost wise not expensive ,I payed $140NZD .
I built a custom bolt in battery tray with CDI mounting for my application.
In summary you just can't go wrong but IMO you need to have a well tuned engine ,good alternator ,starter and loom with whatever you replace your battery with ,cheers.

[technicalninja]

I'm a HUGE believer in gear reduction drive starters.

Those always "hit harder" and require less "juice".

I'd not change a functional starter but if I had to replace one, I'd go GRD every time...

[scallyk9]

I've got Interstate AGM Group 5 batteries from Costco in both of mine. Nothing exotic, they look like original equipment lead acid batteries and fit perfectly in the OEM battery tray and have the lower lip to use the stock hold-down.

[Literati914]

Great info, thanks everyone! I'm probably just gonna get one of the Walmart 51R batteries.
I did however, just noticed that the AGM one has the pos/neg terminals switched from other 51R batteries that I've been looking at, and so it's not ideal. Maybe it's just the picture, I'll check. Thanks again.

[porschetub]

I'm a HUGE believer in gear reduction drive starters.

Those always "hit harder" and require less "juice".

I'd not change a functional starter but if I had to replace one, I'd go GRD every time...

Not sure if (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with that as a good stock starter will do the job fine on a 914 ,then you have a 911 starter ,I have one and never fitted it because the 4 cyl one on my "six" is doing a great job .
Appears these reduction geared starters can be hit and miss dependent on where they come from and the quality of fitment for a 914 ,the supplier tells you it fits but if it's not right you may get a refund but can't see them replacing your flywheel cause the ring gear is all chewed up on your flywheel ,very much buyer "be aware " with these and IMO not an upgrade due to the possible issues .
Cheers.

[technicalninja]

And here's a sign of the times...

I had to put a battery in the Rhino, 2017 Ram ProMaster. looks like a small UPS van.

It's an H8, this is the biggest standard battery in normal use today.

Freaking HEAVY!

Same price as the 51R which is 3 times lighter!

AGM as well!

Walmart $180

If life was fair that 51R should be $60...